How do you spot a Bad Dojo and some more questions.?

Basically my question is the topic heading. But on top of that I would like to ask a few more questions and maybe some of you can give me advice. I am new to the martial arts but I have always had a heavy interest in the arts. I would first like to learn some traditional arts like tae kwon do or karate. But this brings me to another question. I have seen alot of they teach Olympic style tae kwon do. What is Olympic style and how is it different from traditional tae kwon do? Also I also have a interest in MMA. I was thinking i will get familar with a striking art first. What is a good striking system to start off with? Then I thought I would get into a grappling system like brazialian jiu jitsu. What I also need some help with is how do I spot a really good school. I was going to learn tae kwon do from this place http://www.whitetigertkd.com/home/. Then learn MMA from here http://www.4kickbox.com/index.cfm?. If someone could please look at these places and tell if they are good. thanx.

How do you spot a Bad Dojo and some more questions.?
I'll bet you anything that some nincompoops are gonna give thumbs down to this - but here goes:





Signs of a bad dojo:


Anything TKD related (Tkd is not a traditional martial art - it is a recent sport art)





Any place that tries to lock you into a contract before you are comfortable. (Chuck Norris karate - Norfolk , Va)





Any place that has a massive display are with trophies, and wants you to sign up based on how great they are in tournaments.. These are not what the arts are about. (Finn Kenpo karate - KY)





Any place that makes you pay for a trail class/trail period. (Lee's TKD in Vabch VA)





Places that demand that you ONLY purchase equipment through them (ATA is an example of this).





Places that are daycare providers masquerading as an adult dojo (American Gold Martial Arts, Chesapeak Va)








As for your other questions:


Olympic /traditionhal TKD is just a marketing gimmick. People (parents) will pay more if they think their kid may go to the Olympics somday.


Good fighting art: Muay Thai


Good mental/physical.spiritual growth art: Aikido








Remember - each art only teaches you to defend THAT art. Take one art - learn one art - then crosstrain. Find a place with nice people, and nice prices.
Reply:If you don't have a good deal of experience in the martial arts already, it is really impossible for a lay person to spot a bad school or instructor - although the obviously bad will be so to absolutely everyone. It's the more subtle stuff that takes experience to spot, and that is not really something that anyone on a forum such as this can provide guidance on.





I have heard of White Tiger TKD through a professional martial arts organization (NAPMA) that featured them in one of their 2007 issues. They seem to be a credible and legitimate operation.





It really doesn't matter what martial art you take up as a beginner though, all will teach you something valuable and worthwhile for your long term goals. Be aware also, that most people who join the martial arts for one particular reason, tend to stay for a host of entirely different reasons.





The most important thing is not the style/discipline, it's finding an instructor/s you trust, a group of students you actually look forward to training with, and a program that fits within your financial and schedule limitations.





Check out the schools in the area you’re are in - irrespective of the style. Talk with the instructor/s and students. Observe a few classes and talk with the students. Take some time and I’m sure you'll instinctively know which one is right for you. That will be the one where you like the instructor, like the students, and can’t wait to start attending.





You will spend a lot of time with the instructor and students you choose now, so getting that right is much more important than finding a school that teaches a discipline someone on this forum has suggested to you. Everyone is drawn to different disciplines for a variety of reasons and no-one but you can determine what those factors are. Thus, you have to do some leg work by checking out the schools in your area and finding the instructor whom you want to become your mentor and guide, at least at the beginning of your journey.





Once you get a solid grounding (say two to three years), begin to explore your neighborhood for complementary or systemically opposing disciplines and chat with you instructor/s about your plans. Your own greater knowlege, and the recommendations and guidance of your instructor/s should set you on the right path.





Good Luck





Ken C


9th Dan HapMoosaKi-Do


8th Dan TaeKwon-Do


7th Dan YongChul-Do
Reply:Don't let yourself be distracted by a fancy school or unrelated goodies such as weight machines or saunas. A well kept, safe training area is one thing but extraneous features, though nice, ultimately only add to the expenses of the school. There are a good number of excellent instructors teaching out of their garages, basements, and back yards.





Don't get distracted by uniforms either. Many Asian martial arts wear the traditional "white pyjamas" gi while other martial arts have different uniforms and some, no uniform at all, preferring instead "street clothes" or comfortable, loose fitting training clothes.





Also, don't pay too much attention to numerous trophies and medals. Trophies are easy to come by in martial arts competitions. On top of that they are inexpensive and easily purchased by unscrupulous scam artists from the local trophy store. Though this practise is uncommon, it has been known to happen.





Don't judge a school or instructor by how much they charge. It's human nature to assume that a higher priced product is going to be somehow better, yet this is not always true in the world of Martial Arts. Some instructors are simply teaching for the joy of teaching and not trying to make a living or any real money from it.





Further, don't pay too much attention to lots of certificates in Asian script decorating the wall, particularly if you don't read the language they're written in. Most instructors will display only the rank certificate of their top rank (or the top rank they hold in each art they're ranked in if they are ranked in more then one). In general, this should mean that there aren't many certificates displayed. With the state of current computer technology, it is easy to produce impressive looking certificates that say anything you wish them to say, even that the bearer is a high ranking martial artist.





Finally, don't be overly concerned with the rank of the instructor. While in the early stages of training in your new art (say the first 10 years) you probably won't be able to tell the difference between a 3rd Degree Black Belt and a 9th Degree Black Belt.





The World Taekwondo Federation (WTF) was established in 1973 and is the International Federation governing the sport of Taekwondo. The WTF recognizes national Taekwondo governing bodies recognised by the National Olympic Committee in the pertinent country, one in each country, as its members.


The selection procedure for each and every country is very rigorous and only the best of the best get to the Olympics.
Reply:GREAT QUESTION!


to answer it I'll ask you a few questions:


1) what is your ultimate goal? I mean what is your destination, your focus, your drive?


if you are looking to compete in the martial arts or the Mixed Martial Arts venue? because they really are very different. different rules, different goals and different attitudes.


if you want to go the long way then find a little hole-in-the-wall dojo and spend the next 2-10years studying there until you find the next art you want to try.


2)are you the type of person that can find "joy in the journey" or are you a "results oriented" kind of person?


the truth is that no matter what you try you will be confronted with hurtles, obsticles and some down-right hard times. martial arts are a mind-set. some call it a way of life, still others call it a means to an end. either way you need to decide what you want to get out of it, more importantly how much you are willing to put into it.


3) how can I spot a good school?


a few things to look for when trying to spot that much-to-be-avoided McDojo.


look at the schools affiliation certificates. if thay have them then you should be able to research that schoool through the web-site of the main discipline: example; if you go to the web site for United States Judo Association (usja.com) you can find the link to schools in your area and then if the school you are researching appears there it should be a school in good standing with that art.


look at what age the black belts in the school start. if you have a bunch of kids running around with black belts on: you're in a McDojo.


watch a few classes. if you get the feeling that it's some kind of motivational seminar and not a lot of actual skills being taught: you're in a McDojo.


if you see a bunch of black belts beating up the students: you're in a McDojo.


if you notice a lot of unruely behavior and not enough supervision: you're in a McDojo.


and finally........


if the school you want to attend offers financing options based on credit approval: YOU'RE IN A MCDOJO.
Reply:Well, olympic style TKD or WTF TKD is what the olympic commitee has recognized as usable for the olympics. any other TKD systems ( except ITF or a couple of TKD systems that end in Qwan) are not standard or considered nontraditional, like ATA TKD. WTF tkd focuses more on kicks, and most instructors neglect to teach their students how to cover and punch with their hands, so watch out for that. ITF TKD is a more hard contact way of TKD and is actually pretty good for street fights.





as traditional martial arts go, karate, takwondo, muay thai, and kung fu all fall under this catergory. if you want to learn power, do karate or mauy thai. if you want to do speed, flexibility, and have a vast arsenal of moves, go to TKD or kung fu.





Brasilian Jiujitsu and judo are some of the great grappling arts, so you should definetely think of them.





as far as those schools go, whitetiger TKD looks alot like a Mcdojo, that means their out for your money, they look like they charge alot, and their probably not affiliated with WTF or ITF, so I wouldnt bother with them. the second school, the one with the cross training, also has TKD, so I suggest you go there instead of white tiger.





But are there no better schools around your area? if your interested in TKD, try to find either a school thats WTF or ITF, anything else and your waisting your time. If you want MMA or some real hard contact martial arts, do mauy thai, boxing, judo, etc... those are real good martial arts to learn how to fight on the street. also dont rule out karate or kung fu, as those are also some very complete systems.





so go to the schools, talk to the instructors, get a couple of free lessons and see how you like them. if your young, and I think you are, start out with Karate or TKD, since you will make alot of good friends, have fun, and learn self defense. when you get older start going to Muay Thai, jiujitsu, since these later martial arts are alot more hard contact, you make less friends, but they are more effective in real fights.





Spotting bad dojos is very hard if you dont go to alot of them and compare them. If I were you, I would go to diffrent dojos and watch a class or two, get a couple free days to try it out, and decide for yourself. If there is a dojo which charges you a down payment of somesort worth more than $50, they probably only want your money. If they offer a contract, dont walk, run out of there since they too only want your cash. If they offer you a black belt in a year or two, guess what? he will probably say "here, have a blackbelt" but when you fight some one on the street, he will probably kick your ***. Also, if they say that they do "secret techniches", their probably lieing to you so that you can start paying your monthly fee, so dont belive in that stuff.
Reply:To answer your initial question - how to spot a bad Dojo?


I am a UFAF blackbelt and can tell you from personal experience that the instructor is the key to any good Dojo. It's really that simple. You need an instructor who is a devoted martial artist and concerned with teaching you the techniques and philosophies of the martial arts. As far as location goes... you can learn in any parking lot. Don't be blinded by fancy equiptment and decorations. I was taught in a garage next to a baseball field. Hope this helps!!
Reply:if your looking for the martial arts aspect, definately go with karate and not tkd. karate was developed to be a martial art and used as self defense, tkd was developed to be a sport.
Reply:basicly, do tae kwon do as a striking art and hapkido as a grappling art


they both korean and work pretty good


and as far as bad dojos it all depends in certain things, as in expenses and trainning,


hope this helps
Reply:Answering your questions in order:





"How do you spot a Bad Dojo?"





It's surprisingly difficult for an inexperienced person to spot a McDojo, since s/he doesn't really know what to look for. For example, in a very entertaining article on Slate at http://www.slate.com/id/55898, Eliza Truitt details her trips to several martial arts dojos and her efforts to rank them. On the whole, her rankings make pretty good sense -- but look how highly she rated aikido for self-defense! And she didn't even try a boxing or kickboxing gym! (Though to be fair, those gyms are probably more common around Seattle now than they were in the late '90s, when she wrote the article.)





There are signs associated with McDojos, however. Talking with the owner or teacher of the dojo can be most illuminating. Here are a few McDojo alarms, in no particular order:





1. Does the dojo owner or head teacher make a big deal out of calling him (usually a man) "Sensei" or "Sifu" or some other honorific title? If so, it's likely an ego trip for him. Leave.





2. Do they sniff at the idea of "competition" with other students or schools as beneath them? Equivalently, do they maintain that their style is Teh D34dly!!!, and they could never safely try these techniques on someone for fear of killing or permanently maiming them? If so, run, don't walk, out of the building. And hold tight to your wallet. **Any** reputable martial arts place will place a high emphasis on sparring (whether they call it "randori" or whatever else).





3. Is there a "Blackbelt Club" or a "Blackbelt Special" or something similar, where you pay XXX thousand dollars in return for a guarantee that you'll get their black belt? This is a 90% sure sign that you're dealing with a McDojo. Very few reputable martial arts schools do nonsense like that.





4. WATCH FOR CONTACT IN THE CLASS! Do the students actually practice striking or throwing or joint locking or whatever else the art is supposed to teach? If not, it's a McDojo, period. If so, is the "uke" (the one getting punched, kicked, or thrown) supposed to "help out" the "tori" (the one punching, kicking, or throwing) by falling down or otherwise being compliant? While compliance might make sense when you are very first learning a technique, you should very quickly be practicing on a resisting opponent. If all of your practicing and "sparring" is done on a compliant opponent, as is the case for example in most aikido styles, then you are not learning anything of substantive benefit for self-defense.





5. Does the school focus on sports competition or on self-defense? If it focuses on sports competition, ask yourself if you like that kind of competition. If not, don't go -- the school might very well be a top-notch place, but their emphasis will be on something you don't like. If you *do* like competition, then congratulations! On the other hand, if the school calls itself non-competitive, find out how else they train in order to maintain realistic grounding. There's nothing like live, hand-to-hand competition to separate the fighters from the pretenders. If they don't do interschool competition, they should at least have "live" training in their school among the students.





For more discussion of these ideas, read Matt Thornton's blog at http://aliveness101.blogspot.com/2005/07...





"I have seen alot of they teach Olympic style tae kwon do. What is Olympic style and how is it different from traditional tae kwon do?"





It's what they do in the Olympics. Olympic-style TKD is very sports-oriented and somewhat less self-defense oriented than traditional TKD. That said, it's an honest sport that doesn't represent itself as something it's not; it is, by all accounts I've heard, a lot of fun and a real kick (pun intended); and even if TKD doesn't prepare you to fight in a UFC cage, it will give you more than enough weapons to defend yourself in a typical must-fight situation against some street scum or teenage hoodlum.





"Also I also have a interest in MMA. I was thinking i will get familar with a striking art first. What is a good striking system to start off with?"





Boxing. If you can't or won't do boxing, then kickboxing is great, preferably Muay Thai.





"Then I thought I would get into a grappling system like brazialian jiu jitsu."





Outstanding, if you can find (and afford) a good school. There are getting to be some BJJ McDojos, though, so remember that you are way better off at a quality judo dojo than at a crummy BJJ place. In addition, the judo dojo is almost sure to be much cheaper.





"Then learn MMA from here http://www.4kickbox.com/index.cfm?"





My impression is that I would pass. This guy appears never to have studied BJJ, instead doing "small-circle" hapkido (probably a bastardization of traditional hapkido with Wally Jay's "small-circle jujitsu") and "seido goshin jujitsu", which is probably a traditional Japanese JJ. On the other hand, he does have a BJJ brown belt and a BJJ purple belt on staff, so maybe you could get some legit training there, after all.





Basically, you should go there, try out a class or at least watch, and decide if you like what you experience. If so, and if you can afford it, sign up.
Reply:Sloppy Instructors especially sloppy student instructors - especially out of shape ones.





Long-Term Contracts





They charge for belt test, and if they're really puszies, belt stripe tests.





They claim to have been trained in the ancient orient or by the special forces. (this means they've played one too many video games)





They charge for ghis with iron ons.





You Yahoo or Google the county tax assessors real estate website and the dojo is in someone else's name. (this says fly-by-night)





They put down other instructors or styles. (usually means they couldn't beat their own meat)





The students look like they're there for their easy P.E. credit.





They ask you "why should we accept you"? (means they've just been fired from the car lot"





You have to yell something in a different language on every punch.





The BBB.org has negative information on their dojo.





They show you a pricing schema that looks like a cell phone plan.
Reply:Bad schools are easy to spot. sometimes the martial art is named wrong or false identified in the title.


for instance, karate is Japanese\Okinawan, so if a school says they teach Korean karate then they are possibly fraudulent.


anyway, none of that matters.


here is the scoop...


there is no best art, only best artists. the quality and frequency of the training will far outweigh the style being trained in.


find a good school, not a good style.


check out all the schools in your area, take free classes.


ask to see their contact drills.


never sign a contract. never pay for rank testing.


look for a clean school with respectable people
Reply:Good advice, but it's probably more helpful to learn how find a good school than to learn how to avoid a bad one (if you find a good school you don't have to worry about avoiding bad ones).